Premium

The majority of models and photographers on this and other similar sites are hobbyists.

Why are photographers expected to pay for their hobby and most models expect to be paid for theirs?
I now speak as a photographer but am also an actor, performer, model too.

My equipment and training has cost a fortune, both have to be constantly updated.
Pre shoot communications, travel, studio or room hire and my time, models, cost money. Then there's the editing, if I edit 120 shots at 1 to 2 minutes each that's 2 to 4 hours!

I ask tht all photographers make models aware constantly of these costs and ask for a reasonable minimum of Ł10 ph or a more reasonable Ł20 ph plus expenses.
Even if you eventually shoot free or do TFCD all I ask is that all models are made aware that we are not all wealthy and indulging our vanity in this hobby and would like them to place some value on our creative efforts.

TopMember

I second that !

TopMember

In fact I couldn't have put it better myself! Don't get me wrong I would like to make this profitable but find that like Retro says we do all the leg work then pay, bonkers. Some of us on here have fantastic technique and editing ability beyond some pro capabilities. Yet offering this to models who have a pretty bland portfolio seem not to be interested, if they took this oppurtunity then they would appeal to the more wealthier hobbyists or agencies/companies. My statement is know your audience/client. Rates should match what can be gained in return rather than trying to make a killing off someone who can help massively but without the funding. I suppose this is a bit of a rant now but not intended to have a dig, more merely backing up the Retrotogs thread. Photography and videography are well established pastimes and professions but just like anything else it evolves, so much more to explore and discover, whether it be people, techniques, software, equipment and so on. I won't be asking for payment but TFP/CD is underrated! Oh and one last thing it is alo ment to be fun and enjoyable!

Hi Retro,
Purely from a models perspective, I'm going to suggest it's a supply and demand culture.If photographers are willing to offer financial incentives to work with models then I'm sure someone will always respond.I know that equipment etc doesn't come cheap,many thousands of pounds in some cases.However, and I don't want to wander off topic here, working at mainly adult levels,the vast majority of enquiries I have are along the lines of "can I have your rates and availability".I do receive offers of content share etc, but these are minimal.I consider my rates reasonable and as I'm sure the girls here will agree, we have "maintenance" costs also,clothes, make-up,lingerie,shoes,hair,phone bills etc.
Again with tfcd, many photographers offer this and as a mutually beneficial arrangement, seems popular.
Just my take on it and I'm sure others will add their input soon,
Best wishes Naomi xx.

TopMember

That's a valid point on par with paying for clothing, but at the same time is cancelled out by paying for equip. The only advantage I see we have is what we can do with the content after, ie sell it to make profit but that can be a balancing act in itself for numerous reason, like is in the in thing.

This is why I try to make partnerships with models, work on projects together, with the common objective in place, you work as a team to both be paid!

Anyone fancy taking up on this?

Premium

I feel that the TF*/Pay topic has been done to death, and everyone has their own personal take on the why and wherefore.
The only time i get a little annoyed is when a model contacts me offering to shoot, then quotes her rates.
I point out that generally only off TF*, and i get the response.."Sorry, i don't work for FREE".

Neither do I.

On the subject of Partnership/Collaboration... I did this a couple of years ago with a Model who was setting up an Adult Pay site.
This actually worked very well... i did the Photography, Videography and Sound for her.... i made a few quid out of it, then left it at that... got involved in other things.

But i would consider it again with the right person and T&Cs.

Premium

I wouldn't dream of charging TFCD models, personally, and I always insist on paying their travel expenses if they come to my Studio from outside the local area. Just seems polite, really. It's our choice to have photography as a hobby, after all.

TopMember

I wouldn't normally comment on a subject such as this as I believe the service should be mutual beneficial to both parties, either financially or by supply of end product, and is subject to an agreement between both parties.

Just been browsing through some recent castings and amused at the number of 'Model looking for photographer to help with portfolio, model requires payment' listings. So basically the model needs someone to help make them look better, and help them build there market exposure, but also expects to be paid by the photographer as well! I really do think this attitude is very misguided, and will probably lead to the model getting frustrated by the lack of offers and leave modelling for another career path instead. Which for a lot would be a pity

I know there are two sides to every coin, and I'm sure that if I was ever asked to be on the other side of the lens then my attitude may change, but as I'm pretty certain that is never going to happen then I know I'm safe in my one-sided opinion.

Tony.

Premium

Speaking as a model, actor, film extra, I use my own clothes, shoes and accessories and have amassed props like hats, swords, masks over many years, my only expense is travel and food. I seldom get copies of images or films and I pay a photographer for images of me for my publicity.

'Models' who show a lot of flesh and do 'open leg', in the main, get their money from sad old gits with more money than sense, there can be very little artisty nor creativity in their shots.

As a photographer I have come across new 'models' who tell me they have paid £200 or £600 to a 'studio' for their portfolio, and have been told that they have only to show them and work will come flooding in. I gently tell them to put it down to experience and judst enjoy these good images to show their children when they are older.

I can and will do better than these rip off 'studios' run by 'professional photographers' as I'm sure many who read this thread can too.

IT'S HOBBY! Why do models expect £50 ph even £20 ph ? Hobbies cost money! If you want to look good, with photos you can show your grannie, or down the club tonight, PAY A PHOTOGRAPHER !
TFCD is fine, but models have to realise that some of us are interested in art and creativity and our hobby costs us money, I'd like it to cost me less and feel wanted, appreciated more.

TopMember

Not all models treat this as a hobby, yes it may not be their main source of income but then my fee's from my stock agency work is not mine either.

Premium

Most of us look at ways to earn that extra few pounds from our work... most of us on here are hobbyists, even though many would like it to be more than that.

Photography is a hobby and art form for me, the days i used it to make a living are gone and i can now shoot for pleasure.... this does not make it less expensive to do (Equipment, Software...etc), and i spend a great deal of time perfecting/improving my abilities.... not that i claim to be any good.

But i wonder... how many of those who claim to earn a living (Full or Part time) actually pay the Tax, N/I, Public liability....etc
How many use this to supplement their regular job, how many are claiming benefits and doing this to supplement that income....
How many Models actually purchase Clothes, Accessories, Make-up...etc purely for Modelling and do not use the same items to party.

I think we all suffer at some point in our lives with visions of grandeur and self importance, but we really should keep in mind.... Most of us are Amateur's/Hobbyists and do this for the Art and love of it.

Be realistic in your expectations... TF* is a great way for like minded enthusiasts to share a really creative and otherwise, expensive passion.
Times are hard for most, if not all of us.

Premium

I think if you are doing Photography as a Hobby then you have to expect to pay really all hobbys be it photography or be if flying model model aircraft your be paying out your ass for your Hobby.
But with all Hobbys you try your best to keep your costs down, a lot of models do modeling to make money they want to make it full time or it fits in around family / other work.

There is so many Tog's (GWC's) out there these days what with the easy to use DSLR or even the point and shoot cameras that are willing to pay for there hobby and to pay models that are willing ot get there kit off.

you know the ones that have 50 difrent Female models in the Portfolios yet only one consept and 4 poses all on or around a bed!

makes me laugh at times when you see someone that says they are a Photographer or want to be one and to cover all Model photography yet they are only intrested in Shooting female models with very little clothing on!
were are the Fasion shoots where are the editorial images!! where are the images that tell a story draw you in and provoke feeling and emotion.

Why do they Never have Male models in there porfolios?

and why are they all the kinda pic that the models BF could take with his camera phone!


many models only look to TF work when it will also benifit there ability to get more work IE the photographer is well known and published this also works the same the other way around.

there are Many models as with photographers out there willing to work on a TF basis you just need to find them and have a good idea as well something that shows you can get the kinda shots that will be worth having in there portfolios.

dont forget if your paying for the model then you can always try selling the images you soot
(remember to makes sure the model knows this before the shoot and the model release states this)


I kinda fall into 2 boxes here

1, photography for me is my art (so you could say its my hooby) I shoot what I want how I want when I want, I love it and it does not worry me if no one else does, However if someone also loves it then its more of a winner for me.


2, Photography and my art is my only income LOL not that I can say I make a living from it but right now I do have to live off it...

"Models' who show a lot of flesh and do 'open leg', in the main, get their money from sad old gits with more money than sense, there can be very little artisty nor creativity in their shots."

Hello Everyone,
Not entirely sure I agree with that sweeping comment.As you can see from my profile, I, along with other girls here and elsewhere cover open leg and adult work and I can assure you I would't class anyone I've worked with as "a sad old git".Thats more or less saying that anyone who I've worked with falls into this category!!
I understand there are some excellent photographers here and on other forums who's work speaks for itself and are far from sad, old or indeed gits,stereotyping people along those lines is at best rude, if not offensive.Doesn't say much for us girls either, implying we only work with the "dirty old man" brigade.Not the case.
Best wishes Naomi xx.

TopMember

"Models' who show a lot of flesh and do 'open leg', in the main, get their money from sad old gits with more money than sense, there can be very little artisty nor creativity in their shots."

I understand that "adult" is not everyone's prefered genre, and therefore it can be hard to take an artistic view of it, but to stereotype the photographers who do shoot in that genre as sad old gits really is narrow minded.

Also to debate the creativity and motives of those photographers with someone who hasn't got any interest in the genre is pointless, not that it is what is being questioned here.

Premium

Oh dear....
I am 60 going on 61 so possibly fit the Old part :-(
Sad!!! maybe on occasion, but very rarely
A "Git"!!! Guy in Trousers... yes most of the time

And i shoot "stills" and "Video" to open leg.... but i just find that, standing with my legs apart helps me to keep my balance.

Premium

'Models'NEED photographers. Without them they'd only be posing in front of their bedroom mirror or in front of their boyfriend/girlfriend in their latest sexy lingerie or fetish outfit. They need an audience. Photographers are their audience. I model and act, I like/need to be looked at.

Photographers DO NOT NEED models. All of nature is there to be photographed and even the same scene or house or tree changes a lot during the course of a day and year, depending on weather and light.
People shots are possible with a well mannered approach to most people, they are often very flattered and need no money. Candid shots of characterful people can be very satisfying too.

If we were able to have an honest survey of how many togs sold how many images, how often and for how much, I think it would be miniscule. So very few can be classed as professional which to me means 'models' get money from amateurs and both are indulging themselves in a hobby, one group paying the other and paying most to those who will strip and pose naked in front of them.

So those models who want portrait, fashion, swimwear even lingerie NEED TO PAY imho.

As a hobby - mutual benefit works - it's the creative relationship that produces a great image.

As a job - if a professional photographer is shooting an amateur model - she pays him for his services.

If a professional model is hired by an amateur photographer - the he should pay her for her services

(please ignore my general sweeping gender bias here).

Where they are both professionals, then perhaps the shoot again should be of mutual benefit - i.e publication, exposure, commission etc.

TopMember

I say partnerships! Work on projects together to both get paid for publication, who is with me?

"Photographers DO NOT NEED models"
I would argue that ones that have been asked to fulfill an assignment do.As for the comment about audiences.I would disagree that the photographer is the audience,certainly a means of conveying the images to the target market, unless it's of course for their private collection etc.
Try suggesting to some established photographers, "Hey you don't need models, what about the views across the South Downs?"
If photographers don't need models,check out the castings here and elsewhere.

I wouldn't normally comment on these forums I've seen to many disagreements and life is far too short for all of that.
I have to agree with €śBluephin€ť I love shooting clothed models, but I love shooting underwear and topless better, nude open leg ok sometimes, but it doesn't do a lot for me, but if I contact a model or she contacts me I will always respect their limits, so if she doesn't mentioned nude I don't ask, if it happens on the shoot and the model wants it fine, but I can live without it.

As for payment I agree with all to a point, but I do as much TFCD as I can, I normally shoot and like working with new models young and old so it's a TFCD most times, but I had a model contact me and has been pestering me for a shoot, she isn't from here, she wanted £40 per Hr up to nude open leg and she wasn't interested in lowering her price as I wasn't really concerned about open leg (Sad old git of 61) but I'm not a sad old git, I'm just not concerned with open leg.

She wanted a minimum 3 Hrs, and then €śoh sorry€ť we will have to shoot from a Hotel I use as I can't shoot from home, just another £75:00 for the room, a grand total of £195 for one shoot, then on top of this is my cost to get there for the shoot around £20:00, so I have declined and she has now lost out, and she is not happy, but I would never pay £200 for a shoot sorry, it's like with all models who want payment at the end of the day if you look at all the extras us photographers have to find to do the shoot, they are expensive, but I also agree it is everyone's choice if the model wants to be paid for a shoot, you either pay for the shoot or not.

TopMember

I really don't know what the problem is. Nobody is having a gun held to their head and told to pay for a model. If you think your time is more valuable than a models go take photographs of some hills.

Premium

@PhotoBaz I would say that £200 is about average for a shoot if you want to hire a good professional model and a studio.

Premium

There is NO problem and NO fuss, this is called a 'forum', where ideas are generally discussed in a civilised way.
I DO take images of hills, and steam engines, and gardens and houses and flowers and trees, etc. etc. But this is a MODEL and PHOTOGRAPHER site so that's what's here!

Let's go back to the original posting please.

For models for whom this is a hobby, PAY YOUR PHOTOGRAPHER. You get the shots YOU want.
May I ask viewers of this thread to be observant, look at the ages and styles of the models who have posted on this thread. Notice anything?. Do the same for the 'togs'.
Now study as many as possible of the model portfolio profiles on this site. What styles do they list? When did they join? How many new photos have they added? How often do they log on? Hobby?

For the record, I've done more than my share of 'sadult' pics, too many family groups and pets, horsey shots and glamour beauties.
I now try to find models for burlesque, fetish and fine art nude and mainly offer TFCD.
I have only paid for a model about 6 times and these were mainly for dancers/athletes.

This is a HOBBY for many. Pros get work from art direcrors, agents, personal contacts, direct.

'Models' should not expect as of right to get £50 ph just because they take their clothes off. STOP paying them 'togs'! Get them to pay you, but a reasonable £10 or £20 ph, plus travel, edit qiuickly and return a CD or electronically, within a week, that's all! Turn the tables, please.

TopMember

I was under the impression this was called MadcowModels not MadcowPhotographers.

You are correct this is a forum and I am discussing this in a civilised way. At no point have I been uncivil.

However if you take your idea to the ultimate conclusion then this site becomes a vehicle for models to book photographers alone. The only people who would benefit from joining would be photographers and in my opinion I'm guessing the forum would become a very quite place, because the few people on here would be talking about how they never get any work.

People do contact me and ask me to take their photograph and I'm quite happy to take their money off them. However those people are not models, have no experience of posing in front of a stranger and as such pay me to make them look their best.

I also do TFP with new models if I think it would benefit me as well as them.

Steve

May I ask viewers of this thread to be observant, look at the ages and styles of the models who have posted on this thread. Notice anything?. Do the same for the 'togs'.
Now study as many as possible of the model portfolio profiles on this site. What styles do they list? When did they join? How many new photos have they added? How often do they log on? Hobby?

May I ask you to explain in a little more details please the text above?

Premium

Madcow MODELS where you will find 2 or 3 times the number of PHOTOGRAPHERS listed than models!

SBP looks to be a commercial/social photographer, he tells us 'semi pro' so not earning much out of model photography, and offering TFCD. Some excellent portraits too.
However missing the point.

Hobby photographers, and he is in a minority imho as a pro here, should not be assumed by 'models' to be money machines willing to pay £200 for a shoot of them in their underwear, topless or nude.

If they want their vanity massaged with a souvenir of what they looked like before their bottom and boobs sank to their waist, try paying for it with money or at least time and not demand £50 or £40 and hour.

IT IS painfully clear to anyone with any common sense, that if you have the money, and want to pay, you may do it twice a day, 7 days a week. Your privelege.
Models too may continue to ask for £50 ph, ask yes, but get? £5 to £10 ph is more reasonable.

Please lets value more highly what we as photographers do, especially the after shoot editing.

Manager

Quoting retrotog from post 26

Madcow MODELS where you will find 2 or 3 times the number of PHOTOGRAPHERS listed than models!

The models outweigh photographers 2:1 at the moment.

I'm going to lock this. Although the original post was well intentioned, this isn't going anywhere good.

To me, Zenith's post a few replies is probably one of the best clarifications in the thread about who charges when.

Regards,

James