TopMember

Hi

hopefully this won't offend anyone

I've noticed a lot of models recently advertise themselves as beginners or some experience, yet have set rates at £40 an hour or so.

Now this might be very reasonable but as a photographer who is looking to try different things and experiment with techniques i'm a little hesitant to pay that for a model who might need a lot of direction or not be as intuitive as a pro model who charges much the same.

I still think that TFP is the way to go on a first shoot with a new model, then if it goes well for both, the next shoot can be paid for, with both parties knowing what to expect.

Years ago when I used to book photographers for shoots I only paid them if I had already known them or worked with them for someone else, and most models then followed the same route.

I'm happy to pay for specific styles, but would think that if rates were either free for first shoots or set at a low cost to cover expenses etc then it would be better.

Now, this isn't a dig at the models, there are some gorgeous models here and some totally deserve whatever they charge, probably more, but I think that beginner models should go the TFP route until they have a wide and varied portfolio with lots of recommendations, then set charges as they wish.

I hope this doesn't sound mean lol, I put together my own home studio to cut studio costs (though it cost a fortune to buy all the lighting etc), messing I can work with a model for the first time without either of us being out of pocket (as I can pay all the expenses), and also means I can afford to pay her more for the next shoots as i'm not paying for a studio.
Hiring a studio for 3 hours and paying a model over £80 or so is a big expense when neither of you have worked together before and it might not "gel".

anyway, was just a thought, no offence at anyone intended, and like I said, I will pay over the going rates for models I know I can get on with and can help me get the shots I want.

Hopefully this doesn't sound too "bah humbug" at Christmas time.

Oh... Should have said, by no means let this put you off from offering me a shoot and quoting your rates, i'm still happy to pay for models who I really want to work with or have portfolios with shots similar to something that I have asked for in a casting.

Thanks for reading

TopMember

Just realised there are similar threads below

The "guy with camera" thing is a curse, the downside of digital being so easy to pick up, however a good test is to ask them technical questions about the shoot (models should know basic camera stuff in some ways, helps understand the type of photographer they are dealing with).
Questions like "what lighting techniques will you be using", "I like those shallow depth of field shots, can you do some things like that?", ok it's a bit simple but if you get into a chat about their photography style then the good guys will usually get quite excited and ramble on about lighting modifiers, f stops, flash setup, lenses, blah blah etc
Most guy with camera types I've come across in normal life wouldn't be able to explain Rembrandt lighting versus butterfly for portraits, or they're choosing that long lens to help with compression against a short lens for depth of field or wider angles etc.
True, some photographers might not be into discussing stuff like that so it's more a guideline than a rule, but worth asking anyway (in the course of discussing the shoot).

I can see that as a reason why models might think setting high rates deters these guy with camera types, but lots of these guys privacy have spare cash anyway (as they haven't spent it all on lenses and strobes lol) and even worse, they might think this means they get to be more forward with the model as they've "paid".

It's a dodgy world out there, so I understand the concerns, that's why I have a female assistant at all my shoots, and advise that models always let people know where they are going and how long they will be there.

I'm still relatively inexperienced as a photographer, though I've been building up experience quickly (and I've been involved with shoots in the past), but for me it's all about word of mouth, if you are nice to people and do a good job then it comes back around

Quoting stratographic from post 1

Some good points there stratographic on both points, If like me you have a habit of scouring profiles etc, you'll be as shocked as I was to discover rates of £200 per hour quoted.With the economy predicted to "tighten up" even more in 2012, I suspect it's going to be a very hard fought battle on both sides,models especially as more and more photographers, studios, etc claw back the spending.
Regards Wayne.

TopMember

Thanks.
I don't think it's unreasonable, TFP is the best way too try new things and learn.
I think it will be difficult with the fees some are charging, no disrespect to them, but it's a lot to pay out.

Anyway, I have arranged a TFP shoot, and will gladly pay for a follow up shoot, and I will give them something for helping me (not £40 an hour but something to thank them).

I suspect as with most rates, charges etc, the levels are set by market values and trends and as with most other aspects of supply and demand, some will come in at or under that rate whilst some will set their stall out higher.It boils down to what photographers etc are willing/able to pay and whether a model feels able to work to those figures.I have advised amongst others, my good lady to plum for the volume approach,much better to have 15 hours work a month at say £40 per hour than 2 hours at £75,with the added bonus of some more references and maybe a few images to refresh portfolios etc.
Regards Wayne.

TopMember

Exactly
For experienced models with great portfolios then a reasonable fee will get more work I guess.

For new models and those looking for experience, TFP is best for both parties.

Premium

Models can ask for any rates that they think they're worth, if they are worth it they will get work, if not they won't.. GWC's ? I really need this explaining to me as I think I may be one as I like women and I like shooting them, I wonder if that also makes me a lesbian ? .

Honestly though where are all these gwc's ? and what really makes one ?,obviously none on any of the various forums I'm on as everybody seems clean as a whistle .this is an American term which should be buried ,pervs are everywhere and having technical knowledge will not cover that up they're still pervs at the end of the day .
@ Strato ,I'm interested to know how you classify a gwc ,as I've only met a couple of shady characters that I would put into this bracket and they have been very technical people well versed in the art of photography.

Manager

"GWC"/"Guy with camera" was covered extensively a few weeks ago. The thread is still open if you wish to add to it:
www.madcowmodels.co.uk/forum/thread/651/GWC--A-can-of-worms-I-suspect..html

On topic now.

I too have seen some models/members who have very high rates displayed, and I think they're set highly - not to "put off" certain types - but because they haven't done their research about what the accepted rates for work is. I think its a shame as they're a lot less likely to get messaged because who's going to spend their time trying to negotiate someone's rate down to a realistic rate, when there is probably another model below them on the listings with appropriate rates.

Its something I'm trying to combat, though. We have the work rates feature on the site, and as a part of this, we have a page which lists the average work rate for each and every work style:
www.madcowmodels.co.uk/help-centre/your-work-rates

James

TopMember

Thanks James

Incidentally I have encountered the gwc.
Three of them actually, via a friend that used to model. I could pass some names to watch out for (I remember one, the other two I could figure out).
The hallmark seems to be snapshot quality pix, tiny jpg pictures sent back (if any) and trying to push for the top shelf stuff even when told not to.
I also don't think I trust photographers that want to get their own picture in with the models, fair enough it could be just a documentary style shot, but sometimes it looks like a thing to show off with (I have however seen some great model and photographer pix, but they are more of a scene setter than a "heres me with that chick" thing.

Or maybe i'm wrong, I could be taking rubbish here lol, it happens it's late and i'm tired, probably just need to relax and finish off the turkey and fizzy wine

Premium

James it's been covered extensively on every site every couple of weeks or so ,still doesn't seem to be a hard and fast answer to it.I just get a bit fed up reading the same stuff
Rates are rates ,I'm a Mechanic and my rates are not negotiable and I suspect it's the same with many models who are new to the internet modelling scene ,how many actually revise thier rates when they get no bookings ? , how many just don't return to the site or modelling when they realise they are not getting work.

It's really too broad a field to have an average rate for each style as different models have varying attributes and each photographer different requirements Ie should a model stick to her stated levels if the photographer is likely to publish and gain revenue from the shoot ,far too many connotations to be a simple rate for job .
Paul.

TopMember

And apologies to anyone who is offended by the gwc tag, it's not about equipment, more attitude, level of respect for the model. Basically if you are only trying to get pix of naked girls so you can show off, and don't care about the quality or how the model feels, your a gwc not to be confused with photographers who use minimal equipment to get great and cool shots and the model has fun.

Anyway, rates, another interesting point.... If you pay the model do you also give her copies of all the pix? Previously photographers didn't, it was one or the other (you either did TFP so you got all the pix on CD and no money was involved, or the model got paid for her time but didn't get any pix in return).

This seems a bit more relaxed now, but do models who get paid still expect to get the pix from the shoot in general?
I mean I would give them anyway, after all why not, but it's certainly not what happened in the past

I'm just full of festive cheer tonight lol, I really need to sleep and wake up full of joy

TopMember

Hi Paul.
I suppose it works as a guideline.
Anyway, the difference is, for experienced models who know exactly how to work a shoot and have great portfolios (and cover the levels you are after), then I would pay whatever it costs, no problems.

But for a newer model, with less experience or who just does it for fun (or looking to build up their portfolio) then TFP makes sense, and like I said, if the first TFP shoot with them goes well, I will pay them for the next shoot, and I would rather Work with a few models I know well than a new one every week

After all you wouldn't go out and charge the going rate for a wedding if your just starting out with a camera or don't have much experience doing it.... I wouldn't anyway, in fact weddings still terrify me lol, give it a few years before I even try one however i'm happy to be a second shooter or stand in for a friend for free (or beer money).

TopMember

And your not a gwc Paul lol, not in any definition of it, from what I can see, I think you've got great pix, fun, sexy and also some lovely shots too, i'm still learning but hope that I can get better with enough experience.

Premium

I had a couple of thoughts along similar lines. Mainly concerning the "amateur" model, often of little or no experience who has rates for various levels and has shunned tfp/cd from day one. You know the ones, those who only want to work with "professional" photographers so as not to undermine their status.
Rather than try to explain the meaning of "amateur", ask for a receipt with name, address and date and tell her you need it for the tax man when you claim expenses.

Amateur: one for follows a pursuit (particularly an artistic pursuit) for love of the subject rather than for profit.

Quoting IrishRover from post 14

A slighty sweeping post in my opinion,let's be careful not to tar everyone with the same brush.
Would be very interesting to hear from models on this one, many of whom are listed as "amateur" on their status,I wonder how many would consider ongoing work "for love of the subject rather than for profit".
Conversely "A professional is a person who is paid to undertake a specialised set of tasks and to complete them for a fee".However I'm sure several of photographers on Madcow who are willing to pay models may not fall into this category by their own admission,but many still nonetheless produce a very high standard of work.I personally know several photographers who have work published etc and are very much "weekend warriors" as they call themselves,but can still create some fantastic images.
In the photographic industry, are we to judge and label people based on their ability to charge for their work, time etc or on the quality of work they produce and the experience they have gained?
Regards Wayne.

Premium

Quoting @our man flint from post 15

Of course I am being slightly facetious here, but as a photographer of some 50+ years experience I am still an amateur ie I don't ever charge or make money from photography.

I don't believe any of the amateur models on here would be prepared to pay me for a set of prints. with amateur against my name. Nor would I expect them to.

A very interesting topic and I am suprised that there havent been any interaction from models. Oh how the world has changed I can remember when you couldnt be part of the olimpic team if you recieved a fee, thus not an amateur. but sponsership got round that one. Now back on topic, if you are charging a fee for a service either model or Photographer then you mus be a pro. because I am sure if the tax man stumbles across your adds and prices he will be knocking on your door at some point. As with any product or service, the market place determins the rates. SO yes you can charge what you like but if you want to be busy then charging excessively high rates isnt going to keep you rushed off your feet. But on the other hand if you can still get work at your higher rates then you probably would only need to work half as much.

Premium

I've shot with quite a few first time models who have been better prepared better at posing and just generally better than more experienced models .it seems to be that with the internet it's all about self promotion ,keep telling people how good you are and some will agree regardless.
How many times do we see photographers looking for paid work from models with portfolios sadly lacking anything that would entice a model to pay but they still do it beleiveing they are worth it so whats the difference in a model doing the same ?
@ Mart , I'm not suprised at the lack of model response as most models that the op refers to will be taking it as an affront to thier ability/worth , put yourself in their shoes ,(I have and it doesn't half hurt your toes )

TopMember

Guess it comes down to personal opinion.
As an amateur photographer (in that I can't afford to go this as a fill time job), then I need to build my portfolio and experience levels in all sorts of styles.
I don't charge anyone for the shoots I do for them, once I've had enough experience and I can turn "pro" then I will charge them.
For models I think the same idea works really well, they get experience working with lots of different types of photographer and scenarios,, meaning they have a much better folio and understanding of what's required. No one is out of pocket during this learning curve, everyone benefits..... that's how I see it. Plus, those models who did a free shoot with me are top of my list when I'm looking for a paid shoot, or to recommend to anyone else, what goes around comes around and all that.

I have been modelling for over a year.
i have worked with many photographers thru out the uk.
but its only been in the last 4 months that i have been charging....
i love what i do.
the young girls think its a quick and easy way to make some money.
if only they knew.
also i know of 2 or 3 togs that have great portfolios-
have been photographing for many years---
yet i would be hesitant to work with them again-or guide a newbie to them.

TopMember

Thanks storm, nice to get a model perspective.
I agree that it's not length of time but overall experience that makes the difference.
Shame that you've come across a few bad togs but hopefully you left feedback so that others can avoid them

Feedback is always am awkward one...
if i leave bad feedback-would you be hesitant in booking me....
luckily they not on this site.

by the way-
great images on your port

TopMember

Thank you I've added you too.

TopMember

I have only been modelling a few weeks, however I do charge. But then for the type of modelling I mainly do TFP wouldn't be practical, unless it is with a gwc minus the camera which would be ludicrous.
I am aware of importance of a good portfolio, but then I am under no illusion that anyone would ever book me for the more "traditional" style of modelling. Or maybe I am just not taking it too seriously? Besides, I do not expect to get any images from a paid shoot, and the images I do have are not suitable for my portfolio.
I take every shoot I do seriously and professionaly, but modelling as a career choice wouldn't work for me.
I enjoy modelling, and the most important thing for me is that a photographer gets the images he/she is happy with. So as long as I enjoy it and make some money from it I will do it.

TopMember

Poppy, thanks for the input.
I would say though that you are in a different position, more adult entertainment than modelling (please don't take that the wrong way), you are offering a specific service (I think).

TopMember

Yes you are right, it is more adult entertainment,although perhaps you could call it somewhere inbetween, as I am on a lower level of adult. Therefore the modelling "norm" doesn't quite apply lol.
And don't worry, I am not easily offended Anything to do with adult requires thick skin and a bucketloads of sense of humour.

TopMember

Good and there's nothing wrong with adult entertainment lol, as long as people are happy doing what they do then fair play to them

Being a photographer and modelling is a job, and a freelance one, so therefore you have to treat this as a business and set your rates accordingly. No use ASKING for advice as this depends on where you live and the fee you can demand for whatever type of Photography/Modelling you do.

Premium

The amateur v pro is always facinating to me... a pro wedding photographer or pro 'object' photographer is not necessarily going to provide any better images for a model than a very experienced 'amateur' (the latter may have decades of experience and be frequently published). Yes they know how to use a camera, but not always a studio!

Also many amateurs have well paid day jobs, which allows them the luxury of pursuing an art form they enjoy, without the pressure of commercialism.... ditto models, I have worked with a couple of 'amateur' models who basically do not rely on the income, but enjoy what they do and can be VERY SELECTIVE with who they choose to work with, but they are absolute proffesional in all other respects....

As for rates its all about the market, if a new model has a look or style which works and can get hired at double the perceived market rate, why shouldn't they.... similarly many of the highest paid professionals still do TF if its with a perhaps international photographer they admire....

All businesses discover their USP and market forces define what the market will pay thats capitalism at its best

TopMember

True

I just wanted to make a point about tfp, I think it's a great way to build up a portfolio and get experience without anyone being out of pocket or under pressure to deliver, you can try new things and learn the trade so to speak. By jumping straight in and charging then it makes it hard to develop this without the extra pressure.

But by all means do what works for you

Quoting stratographic from post 30

I think that you are still under pressure to some degree, as you will have to produce images for your model, in a specified length of time. as for being out of pocket, think equipment think outfits, think of getting to and from the shoot.

TopMember

TFP is great if both the model and photographer have need to update/build their portfolio.

What really gets me reaching for the keyboard though is when I see models advertising for a photographer to provide them with a certain look for their portfolio and expect the photographer to pay them.

Steve

TopMember

Good point sbp.
I actually had an odd experience like this (not on here, but another site).

I answered an ad for a model looking for a photographer and said i would be happy to help out and arrange a shoot with her so she knew what i could do and try some of her ideas (she was in aberden so i also said i was happy to travel to her).
The original post suggested TFP (as in no rates were mentioned, and it did say TFP in the details of the ad).
Anyway, she got back and started asking about what styles i was into and stuff, so i told her i liked both the straight glamour and lingerie/portraiture side and also more fetish/erotic stuff, but was hapy to do the styles she mentioned in her ad (alt fashion and erotica).
From this i got a very strange email suggesting that i had to prove what i could do before she would consider working with me as she wasnt interested in getting crappy pictures and stuff like that.
It was a bit "cheeky". anyway i replied and said i was happy to do whatever styles she wanted, and was only offering to help. From this i got an email saying "i dont do TFP unless its with an amazing phorographer who can take my talent and produce something oustanding". This was followed by a list of rates if i wanted to hire her, starting at £40 per hour clothed, and £50 for anything else. If i wanted to produce pictures for her to use on her site i had to pay to hire her. the TFP part of her initial request was intended only for amazing professionals, and that what she was looking for was to be paid in order to work on styles she wanted to do.

Now, i really dont want to have a dig but this was coming from a girl with 2 badly exposed pictures that looked like they had been taken in a dark studio at night with no lights, and another couple of pictures taken at a college i guess (from the studenty stuff on the walls), with a forced "fierce" look and bad makeup. I thought that behind those pictures there was maybe an interesting face, but now when i look at them i just see cheeky little madam coming back at me.
I think the problem is that there were some strangely "gushing" comments against some of her pictures suggesting she was amazing and stunning.... none of which matched the pictures i could see

Im going to get into trouble for posting this arent i lol.... i shouldnt criticise a models portfolio and all that, but wow did she think she was something. The annoying bit is that i replied to her ad offering to help.

Sorry for yet another rant.

Good news though.... i now have a few TFP shoots booked with some really fantastic looking models that are happy to work on ideas i have and also for me to do some pictures that they want to do.
I have some paid shoots booked too, though those are with experienced full time models (and at very good rates).

Also i should add that so far on here all of the models i have spoken to have been lovely, polite and professional, maybe i should just keep away from net*model lol.

SBP
I fully understand where you are coming from with TF and paid work, Is it just me or has everyone else noticed the significant increase in models putting up castings for paid work for something they want for their portfolio ie "looking to get some high quality fashion/glam whatever images for my portfolio" but under the requesting payment heading !
Now call me thick but shouldn't these requests either be TF or model paying the photographer? or am I being mean should we just pay the model edit the images and then give them a copy for free !

Hello,
I suspect I fall in with Poppy on this one as most of my work is in the "adult" market which may bring with it slightly different approaches etc.Of course I'm seeking paid work,having said that I'm always open to new concepts and ideas and never rule anything out which could develop into revenue further down the line.
However I would never seek or respond to a TFCD enquiry stating "I'd like this that and the other", it's the combination of the two parties and as such is surely open for discussion and mutual input rather than one side having all the glory.
As always, communication is the key...
Best wishes Naomi xx.

Naomi
I agree with what you say a TF should be both parties stating what they would like to achieve so bath parties benefit equaly, however when a model is requesting payment she by rights isnt entitled to images as she has been paid for the shoot, i would and expect quite a few do offer a couple of the favourites as a goodwill gesture but it isn't a given right as alot seem to imagine.
Re Stu-art's earier post mentioning Am vs Pro debate
Me personaly have spent over 2 years doing mainly TF shoots and only changed from Am to Semi pro status when i started getting the odd payed shoot but its not my sole income. Im under no illusions that there are some far far better amateur photographers out there than me yet i state semi pro.
This is because alot of people still labour under the impression that Professional means best and Amateur at the bottom of the scale( we have all seen posts where models have said looking to work with professional togs only) when actually they dont understand that

Professional = Someone who makes their living from photography
Semi Pro = Someone who sometime gets paid for photography but is not their sole income
Amateur = Someone who doesn't make a living from photography

I have seen some far superior images from some Amateur photographers than some of the Professionals, same with models there are some amazing Amateur models out there.

Hi mitch69,
As an amateur model,I'm happy to work with both professional clients and complete novice photographers, I don't specify "professionals only" or "send me some samples of your work" etc.
I certainly don't expect anything from a shoot, be it stills and/or video other than what was agreed beforehand ie, financial compensation,a cd of images or whatever the arrangements amounted to.As per my other posting I have been very fortunate to receive images in the past, however I am more than aware that this is the exception to the rule for paid shoots and isn't to be expected as a given right.
As with life in general, modelling and photography is very much a learning curve and I'm certainly still learning and hopefully improving at the same time.
Best wishes Naomi xx.

Hey Naomi
It was a general statement and the only bit aimed at you was the fact i agree with you that TF should be equal for both parties, hope you didn't think was all aimed at you as the rest was just general observations
All the best
Mitch

Hi Mitch,
Not at all, as yourslef, just my general thoughts and experiences during my modelling to date.
I made some horrendous mistakes very early on and have learned some valuble lessons.
Best wishes Naomi xx.

TopMember

I had to laugh this morning when I read a models profile. This an amateur model with some experience, who states she works for pay only. To top it off she also states if she is not happy with the shots you take of her you have to delete them.

You couldn't make this up.

Steve

Abp I have seen this before, the thing that is also becomming very common it would appear, is models who only work for pay, who then stipulate the type of "pictures they want". Am i being thick but if a model wants specific images unless its TFP Doen't she pay the photographer. Or am I missing something here.

I look forward to your comments

TopMember

This has been a very fascinating read. New to the site and to modelling although have had some shots done in the past.

I sit here now saying that I have been given conflicting advice regarding paid/tf shoots. Some have said that TFP/CD shoots are the best way to start out while others have told me that the pictures I have in my portfolio are more than adequate to get me into paid photography work.

As it is I have yet to charge for a shoot as they have all been TF shoots where we both worked together to get a set of shots that we both wanted to have for our portfolios.

As a plus sized model I couldn't afford to charge ridiculous amounts of money for shoots )as people who actually want to work with +sized women tend to be few and far between especially in my neck of the woods)

Just curious though as to what a good "starting rate" would be for a newbie such as myself once I have built up a good portfolio of shots?

Donna

TopMember

I agree with lots of the comments on this thread, I find it bizzare that a model can post a casting for specific types of pictures and then request payment? (most of these also list themselves as amature, little experiance etc, etc and have a few poor quality images)

Can you imagine how many responses a photographer would get for a casting call requesting specific pics and then asking for payment??

For me its simple:

TF = its not free, I give my time before, during and after the shoot to edit pictures and my substantail investment in equipment - The model gives her time, travel and receives pictures (the amount agreed before the shoot fully edited etc)- I still think TF is a great thing for photographers and models, the shoot should be discussed in advance all involved should agree to the images wanted from the shoot in advance.

I have had many TF shoots in the past, in the past I took everything I could to gain experiance in different styles and locations etc - I have started to decline some TF offers now where I dont feel it would be of any benefit to me, this is not because I now expect to only complete paid work but because I have limited time for shoots as I have a full time job and will choose to work with people/shoots that will add something different to my port or experience.

I have also had many paid shoots (I paid model) I have no problem paying for a model if I want something in particular that may not be any use for a models port I would not expect them to do it for free ( I also would not consider paying a model for a shoot with little experiance, poor quality images etc ) if I am going to pay I want to see the model can produce the images I want before agreeing payment. I would also expect that if a model wanted to pay a photographer for images for publishing in Vogue they would not pay for a photographer with no proven record in this type of photography.

I guess you would not go to a shop to purchase something and "hope" that it works when you get it home!!

I have completed shoots where both myself and the model want something different, I have paid for the studio, the model has paid her travel supplied her time on the understanding we are trying something new, it may not work but it could be amazing, again - if this is understood and agreed up front then this help to be creative.

To sum up my ramblings, TF has its place - can be great for all involved
I you want something specific - Pay, but pay somebody that has proved they can acheive what you want (tog or model)

Regarding rates for starting out - I would expect that after you have a good range of images and experience then you should charge - one of the models I use who is always busy charges £10 per hour up to lingerie and £15 for nude (no adult) I thought that this is very cheap, however she is very busy and in her words "I love what I do, I would rather have 20 hours paid work a week at £15 rather than 4 at £25-30

Darren