TopMember

After 20 years there are still 3 circumstances which I regularly find cause confusion.

One is the experienced model who shoots higher levels, but doesn't list it on her profile because she doesn't want family and friends seeing it.... So she never gets the work

Second is the newcomer who just ticks all of the boxes because she doesn't know what they mean.....and then potentially walks into a shoot which is totally unsuitable

Third is where there are higher level pictures than the profile states - e.g. nude pictures on a lingerie only portfolio.....and then the photographer risks a complaint if he asks for work based on the picture, not the stated limits

I now insist on e-mailing samples of the actual level we have agreed to shoot to the model first to avoid confusion.

Any thoughts on this mad rambling anyone?

Premium

Whenever possible, i like to meet up with the model well in advance and explain exactly what i want... even show example images indicating the levels required.
If this is not practical, i will send/email examples to the model.

However i do agree to being confused by profiles stating they have been modelling for years and work to "Adult" levels, but the images in their port only show mob/phone shots of cheesy "night out with my mates" or fully clothed shots "In my bedroom".

The port is not re-enforcing their stated levels on their profile.

I agree with both of your comments above..levels i find mean different things to a photographer than they do to a model..one model from this site turned up at my studio recently and i only did this to make a point i must stress that i would not have carried this out..the model who will remain nameless said she was ok to adult standards and i questioned this several times anyhow when she arrived i asked her again what levels she wanted to work upto again she said adult is fine by me to which i replied ok let me get a couple of guys around here and we will start work...the look on her face was a picture but it drove my point home to her...she no longer has adult on her profile!!!! and yes we had a great shoot upto topless..the other level that seems to mean different things is Glamour more than once i have asked the model to drop her top to be told i dont do topless..but your glamour model hun?...girls and guys look up what your putting on your profiles it can save a lot of wasted time..in fact sometime ago i did an article on certain levels thats in these forums somewhere look it up and if in doubt ASK...the only silly question is the one you never ask so never think your being silly to ask someone

Premium

E-mailing examples is the best policy, it avoids any doubt. I once booked a fairly new model for an "art nude" shoot whch she stated as what she wanted to do on her portfolio. But at the shoot she insisted on keeping her jeans on because she only did "art nude" from the waist up. I still have the pics to prove it

Pmsl lmao @ click gotcha omg best laugh today he he he

TopMember

I do understand where you photographers are coming from and yes it is the models responsibility to do the research of what modelling is all about, terms, levels, how to conduct themselves. what is expect etc. Although I do up to nude I don't do it for every shoot and I never do it at group events, my highest is lingerie but I do make sure I have good communications before any shoot so we both know where we stand. I often get asked to do adult but I decline very politely, yet nowhere does it say I do adult but I guess if you don't ask you don't know.

Talking of understanding levels, I was helping organsing an event in June this year, I had asked the models to let me know what levels they were working up to, two of them said adult, i questioned this twice with them and both said yes they knew what it meant. I told them they could no longer attend as I could not accommodate a room and them and their toys. Both wrote back mortified as it was a photographer who had told them nude was adult levels. A so called professional and he wasn't a guy with camera either but he himself didn't terminology... nude is classed as adult......

A sample of images, styles you are looking for is always a good idea and a good old chat on the phone so everything is understood, good communications....

hugs xxx

Premium

I had a similar situation as mentioned by MrsC....
A while ago an "Alternative" model contacted me regarding a shoot, to include "Adult Fetish".
Having seen her Port, i questioned her further... It turned out that she was of the opinion that, posing in a corset, high heels and black stockings, brandishing a whip... was "Adult Fetish".

So, i always try to show examples of the kind of shoot/levels i am looking for...

TopMember

So, we all agree that photographers sending samples of content is the best idea. Glad about that as it was already in my best practice manual. Now how about any model or photographer who wants to describe themselves as "professional" has to have at least 1 professional level picture in their portfolio...... Me thinks I ask too much!

TopMember

To describe yourself as professional, model or photographer, you should earn 51% of your earnings doing that... I don't think you ask too much at all perfectpink it is the others who don't understand. A simple solution, stay away from portfolios that you feel are not portraying themselves correctly. There will always be chancers and people who think they are something they are not, that will never change...

(Way off topic but how do I edit a forum post after I have posted it ? I just read my previous posting, it doesnt make sense. Please mail me if anyone knows... thank you xxx)

hugs xxx

TopMember

You can edit a post by clicking the edit button for the relevant post, sometimes for only a limited time after the post was made. If someone has already replied to the post, you will find a small piece of text output below the post when you return to the topic which lists the number of times you edited it along with the date and time. This will only appear if someone has made a reply; it will not appear if a moderator or administrator edited the post, though they may leave a note as to why they€™ve edited the post at their own digression. Please note that normal users cannot delete a post once someone has replied.

Premium

Quoting Perfectpink from post 8

This one i think is a little more complicated...
What is "Professional"?
A model who is professional does not have to have modelled for a professional photographer, or have images taken by a "Professional" Photographer.
To me, "Professional" is an attitude to the work they do, and how they conduct themselves before, during and after the shoot.
Some take the attitude that, if you make most of your income from Modelling/Photography, this makes you a "Professional".
In my opinion... the fact that you earn your living from photography is only a small part of being a "professional", it is more to do with your conduct throughout.

TopMember

But........ ( there is always a but when a women is involved ) if we are getting technical... in the eyes of the law, professionals earn 51%. I myself like many many other models and photographers have a very "professional attitude" but cannot class myself as professional as I don't earn 51% of my income modelling.
I have worked with a wide range of abilities from photographers, saying you are a professional doesn't make you a good photographer just means you earn your living from it. So yes I agree with you to a certain extent..
hugs xxx

TopMember

I am tempted to agree, but can't quite for the following reason. "Professional" as a description brings with it an expectation of experience, attitude and approach, but above all an expectation of higher levels of pay. It is therefore unreasonable for a model who has not achieved any "professional level work" to have the expectation of that higher level of pay, without something to back it up.

TopMember

Thanks perfectpink for your help but I reckon I'm either having a blonde or a senior moment, there is no edit button... I have this on top of my post.. "about 21 minutes ago | Report Post | Quote"

Let me take this to a new post as I'm taking it off topic too much.. sorry
hugs xxxx

Premium

I think, when we describe images in terms of "quality" ( this term in itself is down to personal interpretation), we should leave the word "Professional" out of it.
I am sure we have all seen images on the net, camera clubs..etc, that were created by genuine Amateur's... that in quality, artistry, technically, would make the work of many "Professionals" look more like images taken by a total incompetent.

TopMember

Mrs C - I cheated and cut and pasted the help section of the site.....

Agreed entirely on the confusion, which has caused problems for me too. Maybe this site should post a comprehensive list of definitions which we can all work to.

Premium

I definitely agree that it's very helpful (but not necessary) for photographers to send models images before the shoot if possible to explain some of the ideas/levels they have in mind for the shoot. I find it helps me better prepare for the shoot (I sometimes have props or clothing I throw into the suitcase based on what I think the photographer might like for their ideas), and it definitely helps clarify the levels involved in the instance that anyone has a different interpretation of them. But yes, if a model lists art nude and turns up in jeans saying she won't take them off, she should probably learn some basic modelling terms (haha - I laughed at that one too).

As for being a "professional", I've always listed myself as a semi-pro because I also earn money from my art (I'm an artist too). Some months I earn more from one than the other. I've also heard that a professional model needs to earn enough money (post-tax) to average a full-time minimum wage salary every month to be considered professional (a different definition from the 51% definition).

As my earnings vary month to month depending on what I'm focusing on, I feel safer and more honest saying semi-pro. But I'm not really bothered too much as I figure photographers will hire a model based on photos, references, and general reputation.

Premium

I would say anyone whose main income is from photography can call themselves pro and anyone who makes some income can call themselves semi pro. But this is simply my opinion, there is no 51% rule.

I've seen professional photographers produce crappy images and amateur photographers produce stunning images so the terms are fairly useless any way.

Premium

Timbee

The problem is there is no comprehensive definition, especially of nude and adult levels.

Talk to the model, discuss the shoot, show them examples, leave no room for misunderstanding. And most importantly, never use the word "implied"

TopMember

The Inland revenue class you as professional in whatever you do, if you make more than 50% of your income from it.

As with everything good communications leads to a good working relationship.

Hugs xxx

TopMember

A model on here states she is Amateur, inexperienced, but then goes on to say "Paid only" She then lists her fees from £35 up to Swimwear and Lingerie, £45 topless, £50 implied nude and £100 Artistic nude. Adult by negotiation. She also just has a couple of very fuzzy Night Out images from a phone camera.
As to Levels, why not put a brief explanation of each level on the registration form with the advice, "If in doubt Leave it out" It might just save a few embarrassing incidents.

Premium

Hmm got drawn into the pro v am topic on a different site....

1. a pro photographer may in fact earn all of his money shooting engineering parts, this does not make them the best or even a good model photographer!

2. there are 'amateur' photographers who have very high earning day jobs, so do model shooting as a hobby/second income and they are well respected and admired.

3. a pro model may be someone striving to earn an income from modelling, this does not make them the best in every genre. (I met an excellent model last week, who will only work part-time around her day job so she can pick an choose who she works with and she was very professional)

4. Someone once wrote, that many professions only earn a portion of income from a particular activity, but that doesn't mean they are not qualified or professional!

Me I am a self professed amateur photographer, never earned a penny from any form of photography and probably never will. But that doesn't mean I don't spend money kit, props (lots of props/furntiture) and hiring models (oh yes good {NB not a reference to my photography technical skills} amateurs don't blag TFP, we know who we want to shoot, book them and PAY them)....

But then we will all have different views, opinions and ethics, but isn't that part of the fun of a varied world.... you all have fun Stu

Premium

So anyone who does TFP is a blagger and BAD amateur....
A photographers time/skills have no value at all, only the Models time (Experienced or not) has value.

As you say... We all have different views, opinions and ethics...

Clickgotcha

I agree there IS no standard definition, but there should be! I used to do quite a bit of work at a studio near here (now sadly closed) which had very comprehensive definitions so everybody knew where they stood and I think that was helpful to models and photographers. And 'implied' has its use, but again only as long as everyone knows what it means. I have used it for (for example) book covers where the model is topless (or naked) but nothing can be visible. Very useful!

What kinda annoys me as i cant talk freely about the levels i do for fear of being kicked of most site.

as much as i have stated on my profiles wat kinda work i do i am always being warnd to b carefull in pm when talking to togs

i much profere to speek in person with the tog then u r free to realy discuse wat everyone is happy to do

hugs

Premium

You cannot do better that a pre-shoot meeting between the Model and Photographer, and to ensure no one is misunderstood regarding levels/styles...etc, a few sample images should do the trick.

I much prefer a pre-shoot meeting with the model, but before the meeting i also like to email or direct the model to images similar in content to the one's i wish to shoot with her.

For sure

i am not to fussy with a meeting (so to speak) just speaking on the phone to some one can give u an idea of wat the person is like

but yer totaly get wat ur saying the more contact u have with the person the better

hugs