TopMember

....when you are so obviously not interested!

Take for example a stunning girl in Edinburgh who I have e-mailed twice now, 2 weeks apart so as not to be pushy, with well paid offers of work in her limits and yet no reply. Both have been read and her response rate is at 60%.

I would suggest that she is clearly not interested in modelling. Even a polite no would do, or perhaps even better a maybe with further questions or a yes!

Would it be fair to suggest that any model or photographer who's response rate falls below a certain level, say 66% for perhaps a whole month (to allow for holidays and technical problems)should be removed from the site to clean it up and save everyone's time? I don't think that replying to 2 out of every 3 messages is unreasonable is it?

One thing that i like about this site is that response rate, because it gives you the chance to weed out some of the flakes.

TopMember

True, but would be easier if they weren't there wouldn't it?

Manager

Hi,

I dislike the idea of removing members due to a low response rate, but what I may look to do in the future is "reward" those with a response rate higher than 85 or 90%.

When I introduced the RR a few months back, it wasn't the end of its development, but I wanted to get it integrated into the site so that it could have a positive effect before I introduced penalties and rewards.

James

Premium

So ,am I right in thinking that if a model gets maybe 10 mails in a day and doesn't log in for a couple of days the response rates would be very low until they are answered

Manager

No, the system only counts messages that are read, the thinking being that you can't reply to a message you haven't read.

James

TopMember

Which is in itself a little misleading as someone could have been sent 100 messages over a 3 week period, not be bothered to open any and still have a 100% response rate. Still nothing is perfect, and it is a damn good effort here to try.

Premium

Some consideration would need to be given to the membership level of the offenders... what if they have paid for "Premium Membership" or are paying for "Top Membership".
What about people who sign up for membership, then appear never to return.. even after months....

I think James's idea of rewards is a good one, and would encourage people to reply to their post.
Just need to find a reward that would be practical to introduce/administer.... everyone with a 95% response rate, gets a free all expenses paid holiday in the canaries

Now i love the canaries-some of my images are from there .
being serious-rewards sound good for regular members who respond to messages and log onto the site.
as been pointed out----what does it take to just reply with a polite no.

Premium

Maybe you can take their message response rate percentage as equaling the chance they'll turn up to the shoot?

Premium

You didn't mention feedback - did the model have positive feedback from previous shoots? Would it have been worth contacting any other togs who have photographed her?
I do agree though that no reply - not even a polite 'no thanks' is poor Hope you don't think that this is typical of Edinburgh models!! The one above me here in the post is 'ace'!!

Premium

The respose rate is a wonderful addition and indication of subscribers interest and reliability as is the number of days since they last logged in.
I only expect a 50% reply to any polite message or enquiry I send out, but it can be as low as 10%.

BUT my faith was restored today by a model new to the site, 4 days ago, whom I contacted, who replied straightaway, communicated by PM, email, text and phone, whom I photographed today.
Stunning, interesting, interested, enthusiastic, boyfriend nearby and happy, mum nearby, happy and supportive. She deserves to do well. She even sent a 'thank you' text to me on my way home!

As for the flakers? They'll keep their bragging rights in their pubs or clubs about being a model and I'll expect the next 9 messages I send to be read and ignored with no reply, not even a polite 'no thanks', or 'sorry I'm busy'.
I'm very happy with this site and the way James manages it.

TopMember

If Any Model has anything under 85% I generally don't bother because they obviously don't ... It's
best to also do Your Homework on the Model ... just to get a Picture of a Wannabee

John

TopMember

As well as the total lack of common courtesy in not replying, even if just with a Sorry can't do it, it annoys me that so many models don't post a single image in their portfolios. I could understand a newcomer not having anything to post at first, but you even allow phone pics and self shots. But when it comes to Professionals and semi pro's who boast of all their experience on their profile and expect to be offered work but you have no idea what they look like??? They also list all the levels they do but never support the statements with images.

I understand the rating/percentage thing but when you get messages from tog's wanting you to spread your legs when they cant even be bothered to read your profile to know you do not do this, then why bother giving them the time of day in replying.

I know this is a disease on most modelling sites the issue i raised its such a common post on most sites but if a free member then goes on to pay a subscription to this site i think thats also saying your serious about what you do but to then get penalized for not replying due to low rating personally i think thats not fair and would never subscribe again.

At the end of the day if a model has a low rating then thats thier choice not everyone will do TFP/CD or will like the work of the Tog who messages them so if they want to be choosey then so be it doesnt mean they are rude/pretending to be a model etc etc.

Also OP ive seen some of your castings on another site n/port! to be honest i think hard porn shoots should not be sites like this their are dedicated adult modelling sites out their for that kind of thing.

Yet the other point raised about models/togs not having pics in their port or even an avatar i think the mods should remove them if no activity or pics have been added after a certain amount of time.

TopMember

Hey Dawn ... Hope Your Well

I totally agree with the Pervs etc and answering them ... So I suggest what I've done in the Past ... Because I've been offered POV and Gonzo on this site and others ... So if a Model offers Me something which is against the rules or even nasty ... Just answer them with a "." ... That way You've replied and they don't write back ... and if they do ... Then write ".." and that way Photographers will think You respond ... Never let the Pervs spoil Your Career or Hobby ... Just
Typing a " . " is a reply ... Worth it in the end even though they don't deserve to be answered,
All the best
John

Hi John,
Good to see you on here, your work is growing stronger every time i see your port that is actually a good idea you replied with, i guess they will get bored in the end and give up. Oh they do not spoil my day/career any more ive got to where i want to be and loving every day but its the new models i feel for who can be put off by such things and then if they got penalised etc thats just icing on an already bad cake so to speak.

Keep well
Dawn
x

Premium

I can sympathise with the models who are asked to do adult levels when their profile indicates they do not work beyond Fashion...
But i do not see that as a reason not to answer, a simple "No thanks" or "Not Interested" would be suffice.
I too have had inappropriate responses from models... I cast for "art/fantasy nude" and i get models who's levels go no further than taking their coat off responding "would love to be involved in this shoot".
I always reply, explaining that their indicated levels do not meet my requirements... this i feel is just being polite.

The attitude of "No reply is a reply", i feel is ridiculous... No reply is bad manners.

If someone is blanket emailing models for inappropriate levels, then perhaps a complaint to James could be made.
Then if a person has a certain number of "justified" complaints against them, something could be done... "Three strikes and your out".

I personally think this is a great site, and James is doing an excellent job... i am not sure what if anything can or should be done about some of the concerns.
But i would not like to see this site become so strict that members are afraid to contact each other just in-case they upset an individual.
Or the forums become just a place where members rip each other to shreds, where internet bullying is rife and a very select few, rule the roost.

Just my 2p worth.

Ian.

TopMember

I always answer any messages that actually need a response. However as a photographer who regularly post comments on the images of either models or photographers I often get a short message from that person thanking me for the comment.

Am I now being judged as the fact I don't reply to every message is now giving me a response rate of 71%.

I hope not

Steve

Premium

A good point from "sbp"

Premium

Also.. does the rate count messages you have responded to, but the recipient has not yet read?
Yesterday my rate was over 90%, then i received a message that i have responded to but which has not yet been read... my rate is now 85%.

TopMember

Blimey, I've opened a right can of worms. Sorry everyone!

Premium

I think you have expressed a concern that most of us share (and get frustrated about), however, at a loss to know what if anything can be done about it.

A very worthwhile topic and good to debate....

Manager

Haha, yeah - thanks for this Perfectpink !

Firstly, a reward trip to the Canaries is not on the cards.. sorry folks!

Quoting Dawnsdreams from post 15

Members will not be penalized for having a low response rate, as mentioned earlier, I'd far rather reward high response rates than penalize low response rates.

As for your other point, new members are not accepted unless they complete the Account Approval Checklist. People who have been members for longer may not have seen it, but when a new member signs up and logs in, they see a "Account Approval Checklist" on their control panel. There are 4 criteria at the moment before its even considered for approval (Valid email, profile photo, profile info, about me).
In a couple of weeks, I will update the checklist so that new members should have a selection of photos in their gallery too.

Quoting Manneringmedia from post 18

Exactly, to all your points. On every messaging, profile, gallery and forum page there is a "Report" button - all of which come through to me directly.
If members have an issue with a type of work they're being offered (for example, adult when they've got nothing like that selected) then please feel free to report it and I will look into it without bias, and of course - all reports are completely confidential.

Quoting sbp from post 19

Unfortunately the system isn't intelligent enough, yet, to work out where the "end" of a conversation is.

So if A messages B, but there's no need for B to message A back (like in your example), then the system will knock down B's response rate.

The only way I can think of getting around this, is by having an archive button, so when messages are archived, its declared as an end to the conversation to the system.

So, using the same example, A messages B, but no need for B to message A back. If A then archives the message (Must be A, otherwise B could abuse the system), then both A and B get a "100%" score for that conversation.

I hope that makes sense?

Quoting Manneringmedia from post 21

Yes the rate counts that. If you've responded to it, then you'll be "credited" with that response.

James

TopMember

On the subject of portfolios.I am sure that many photographers like myself will whenever possible do a TFP/CD shoot to help aspiring models who are serious about being part of our industry and feel they have something to offer, and are willing to learn. The industry has been good to me for over 30yrs and I feel I'd like to give something back by helping newcomers. I have just offered a free one day portfolio shoot to a young lady who was ripped off by one of these bogus 'agencies'.Another blight on our industry but that is another thread.

I get a lot of offers from 'Adult' performers which I refuse to accept. They seem to think that as my speciality is erotic photography I am up for anything. They don't read that I do Tasteful erotic. I always reply though out of common courtesy. I have a stock reply I can copy and paste when required. It only takes a few seconds.

Well that is my rant for today. Get off my soapbox now and get back in the studio.
Regards to you all. Adrian.

TopMember

I guess whatever you do will not be right, members want a true idea or what members are like but owners of sites don't like to delete members not unless they break site rules because they have more members on their books so to speak. The "my site is bigger than your site" so members go to the more active bigger sites.
Maybe if people don't respond after the first mail, then don't send another, why waste your time on rude people with no manners. They may be the prefect looking model for your project but if they are not going to turn up, then they aren't.
Some people just join modelling sites so they can tell their mates and boyfriends they are " a model " but have no intention of doing the hard work that goes into it.
How many people have no shows because they have " family issues ", "personal problems "..

Look at it as a positive if they don't respond to your mail, think of ALL the money you have saved not having to book a studio, MUA, a day off work, your time, because they would have no showed anyway...

Hey but what do I know, I'm a model and blonde at that.... hee hee

Hugs Annmarie xxx

TopMember

Well i have 100% on my profile i answer all emails when i get them but not sure how often togs look at responses cos i seem to wait for weeks before i get response , if theyre posting a shoot then a simple yes im interested with location and dates , or NO!! its not rocket science

Anna P

Premium

"Unfortunately the system isn't intelligent enough, yet, to work out where the "end" of a conversation is."

I would have thought it was better to forget about trying to determine where the end of a conversation was naturally and force one yourself. By this I mean do the stats purely on the first message sent. This is possibly a more accurate representation anyway and I would guess you already have most of the hooks in place for the system to determine whether a message is a new message or the continuation of a conversation.

In terms of reward I would possibly just keep it subtle such as the order profiles show in a search is some product of last logged on time and response rate.

TopMember

First of all James congratulations on building a truly awesome site. Of all the sites I have used, this is the simplest and cleanest, which is exactly what I need.

For the message response rate I would suggest implementing it as part of the Send/Read Message functionality.

When sending a message the sender is provided with an option to say "I am expecting a response from this message." By default the option would NOT be selected, meaning people wouldn't by accident send a "Your portfolio looks awesome, keep it up." message with an expected response.

When someone reads a message that requires a response, it is clearly indicated in the message so the reader knows that they are expected to respond. If the work is not interesting a simple "no thanks" would suffice.

When calculating the response rate the calculation only takes in to account messages to which the receiver was expected to respond.

The "I am expecting a response from this message." option would also be available on replying posts, indicating a response is expected to the reply.

Finally add an option to messages which enable the users to "Report Unsuitable Message" as well as "Report Abuse". Abuse would be investigated instantly (for harassment, racism, sexism, etc) whereas Unsuitable Message would be reported after a trigger has been met, say 3 reports. This gives the site owners / mods the opportunity to filter out those consistently failing to read users profiles when messaging.

Manager

Quoting MrsC from post 26

I guess whatever you do will not be right, members want a true idea or what members are like but owners of sites don't like to delete members not unless they break site rules because they have more members on their books so to speak. The "my site is bigger than your site" so members go to the more active bigger sites.

Hi MrsC - of course you're correct to a degree about not wanting to delete members for that reason, but I also dislike the idea of deleting inactive members because a large percentage do actually come back online and become active again.
I've always wired the site so that the most active/recently online members appear at the front of the listings - because I believe that members who add value to the site by being active should be "rewarded" by being the first members seen.
This ties in quite well with PGPhotographic suggestion of the response rate reward being a high listing up the member listings.

Quoting PGPhotographic from post 28

Quoting iannem from post 29

Thank you for the suggestions, and kind words. I like both ideas and I think both would work. Over the next week or so, I will experiment with both ideas and any that I have noted down, to see which gives the most accurate - and fair - response rate.

iannem - there is a "Report" link in place already, at the top and bottom of messaging pages. These all come through directly to me. I think its best that all reports come through directly rather than waiting for a trigger, as I ran a somewhat similar system previously, and sometimes members would get confused whether to report it as unsuitable or abuse.
And of course, I give members gentle reminders if they're messaging members and failing to read profiles (for which there is really no excuse, considering the messaging page lists the recipients levels at the start of a convo).

Thanks again,

James

TopMember

It is hard getting the balance right, you are dammed if you do and dammed if you don't. Like everything you will not please everyone whatever is decided. I moderate on another site and help make decisions to improve the site for members. You seem to care what the members want on here and its great you are an active owner.

Hugs xxx

Well first of all thank you James for a great site..im not sure what my response rate is i never ever look at it but i do reply to messages as and when time allows..my own view is this if someone cannot be bothered to reply then i cannot be bothered to contact them again but some people have busy lives for example i wrote to a model on here and around 6 weeks later got a reply as she had been out of the country with her family...so is it right to penalise people for not replying? i think a common no thank you would suffice in a lot of instances..ignorance is not an answer its an excuse people use for whatever reason.
Gone are the days when i used to shoot a model because i could now they have to offer me something that i need in a photograph but if you compare amatures to pro models and let downs then sorry but full pros are getting very good at booking shoots then cancelling on you if something better comes their way so its not restricted to amatures and i might add these pros have excellent feedback on other sites too.rewards for good members is something i will look forwards to as and when the system gets updated can i suggest a tankfull of fuel to help compensate all the no shows ive driven too lol ha ha ha sorry James im joking lol.
The one point Mrs C made about girls making a profile so as they can show their mates that they are a flakey model is rife and not only on this site and as Mrs C has said to be a good model requires a lot of very hard work and dedication its never a job its more a vocation being a model means more than a quick pout wearing tacky clothing in front of a camera.

TopMember

Going off track a little but sort of on the same point because it is to do with communication. When models and photographers ( yes its not just models ) no show, over step the mark, mess you about etc. Feed back must be left to reflect your experiences, so others don't have to go through the cost and hassle you have. I know lots of models and photographers that it has happened to and when they have mentioned it to others, they have said " that happened to me " but a reference wasn't left reflecting their experience. They just wont book them again, which is fine but what about the next person and that next person could be you.....
hugs xxx

TopMember

Right everyone, what a wonderful few days of opinion and ideas, all of which are very valid and well thought through. is the subject of levels.

Please can I respectfully suggest that this thread is now closed, as I am getting too many e-mails about new thread postings!! I am glad I made the post as the replies have been excellent, and if anyone else wants to start a new post along similar lines, please feel free.

Thanks

Mike
Perfectpink

Manager

Once again, thank you for the kind words.

As per PerfectPink's request, this thread is now locked.

Thank you for some of the great suggestions, I'll be working on the RR over the next week or so, and will post a blog detailing the changes when its done.

James